It's nearly a week now since the
horrendous mass shooting in Minneapolis
where two primary school children were
murdered and more than a dozen people
injured. The children were praying in
morning mass in the church next door to
their school. This is the mayor of
Minneapolis, Jacob Frey.
>> There are no words that can capture the
horror and the evil of this unspeakable
act.
Children are dead.
their families that have a deceased
child.
You cannot put into words the gravity,
the tragedy, or the absolute pain of
this situation.
And don't just say this is about
thoughts and prayers right now. These
kids were literally praying.
>> It's yet another horrifying example of
gun violence in this country. Children
slaughtered in their first week of
school. And it happened just weeks after
another shooter. gunned down workers in
a New York office building. Every time
we cover a mass shooting, the same
questions remain. Why only in America?
And will anything ever change? So, we
wanted to dedicate today's episode of
Trump 100 to this controversial issue. I
speak to two people on either side of
the gun debate in America.
Today, as Americans, we grieve the
brutal murder, a horrific massacre of
dozens of innocent people.
>> In 2016, 49 people were killed in the
deadliest terror attack in the US since
9/11 as a gunman who'd pledged
allegiance to ISIS opened fire at a gay
nightclub in Orlando.
>> Good morning, I'm Darra Brown. There's
breaking news at this hour from Orlando
where there are reports of a shooting at
a nightclub in that city. NBC's Sarah
Dof is on the phone near the scene and
Sarah, good morning to you. What are you
seeing in Orlando?
>> Uh, good morning. You know, this is a
huge, massive scene. It just keeps
getting bigger.
>> Brandon Wolf was one of those in the
club. He hid in the bathroom and
eventually escaped amid a hail of
gunfire. Two of his best friends were
murdered that night. Brandon is now a
civil rights and gun safety advocate and
a best-selling author. He currently
serves as national press secretary for
the Human Rights Campaign, the nation's
largest LGBTQ plus civil rights
organization. His book is called A Place
for Us. Brandon, just forgive me for
asking you to repeat this. I know it's
sort of going over ground that you
probably uh you know have done countless
times, but you call June 11th, 2016 the
last normal day of your life. That
evening you decided to go to Pulse
nightclub in Orlando. You'd been there
countless times before. You went with
two of your closest friends that
evening. Can you take us back to that
night and what happened?
Yeah, I call it the last normal day
because, you know, for for people like
me, for people like my best friends, um
Pulse was a sense of normal for us. It
was a community that we had carved out
in a world that so often tells us we
don't get to be normal, that we're
always going to be different or other.
Um, and everything about it was normal.
The line was as long as it ever was
outside. The the drinks were the same as
they always were. The the music was
radiating through the floorboards. Uh my
best friends and I went to our usual
spot on the patio where we did the most
normal thing. We had conversation, we
laughed, we danced. Uh my best friend
was a therapist by trade and and he
always offered you a free therapy
session whether you wanted it or not
when he had had a few drinks. And that
night he offered us a therapy session.
Everything about it was normal until it
wasn't. Uh, it was just after 2 o'clock
in the morning when I was washing my
hands at a bathroom sink and a man
filled with hate and armed with a weapon
designed for a battlefield charged
through the front doors of that club. In
a matter of hours, with a standoff with
police, he fired over 110 rounds into
the club, killing 49 people, injuring 53
others, and leaving our entire community
shattered. So, every time one of these
horrific tragedies happens across the
country, I'm brought back to the night
that I was laughing and dancing with my
friends and then never got a chance to
say goodbye.
>> And I presume you're brought back all
the time. I mean, you know these
statistics as well as anyone, but
according to the gun violence archive,
there were 34 mass shootings in the US
in the month of August alone. Of course,
many of these don't even make the news.
Some of them do. Last week, there was
the horrific murder of two children uh
in Minneapolis in a church. You said
those events take you back to that
night. Can you explain that feeling?
>> It's hard to explain to someone who's
not been through it before. Um it tears
at your soul when you're doing the most
normal life activities and then before
you know it, you're calling someone's
parents to tell them that their child is
not coming home. uh it tears at your
soul when you have a missing face at the
dinner table, when you know there's
someone gone from the birthday party.
That's what these families are going
through. People buried their children.
There are people who have family members
that are in the hospital that they're
going to be looking after for a very
long time to come. Um, and and so it's
it's hard as someone who's been through
that before, not to have your your
heartstrings tugged at seeing other
people at the beginning of a journey
that I've been on for almost 10 years
now, knowing the sleepless nights, the
nightmares they will have, the fact that
they will replay every moment that
happened in the leadup to the shooting.
If I just walked this way or turned this
corner, might something be different?
Um, I've carried that weight now for
almost a decade and and it breaks my
heart to see other communities having to
do the same.
>> In the wake of that shooting in the
church, Brandon, the mayor of
Minneapolis said, "Thoughts and prayers
are not enough anymore." The shooter who
killed those children purchased those
firearms legally. What would in your
opinion genuinely make a difference,
stem the tide of these mass shootings?
>> Yeah, well, the mayor is 100% right. And
listen, it was Jesus himself who
decrieded performative prayer without
the tough action that loving thy
neighbor requires, right? Um it takes
work to to care for each other, to love
each other. And our leaders have to do
that work right now. That is what this
country is crying out for is do
something. It is not enough to offer up
empty thoughts and words after something
like this happens. you are in a position
of power and you should use that power
to stop other people from having to bury
their children. And and I don't have to
guess what would stem the tide of gun
violence in this country because the
data is really very clear. You can try
to obfiscate it. You can try to whine
about it. You can try to make excuses
about it. But the truth is the common
denominator for America's gun violence
crisis is easy access to deadly weapons.
Uh and so a whole host of policies could
and would have an impact. We could
implement national red flag laws that
allow courts to temporarily separate
someone from their guns. We could
strengthen background checks uh and make
them universal across the country. We
could put money into community violence
intervention programs that seek to
separate someone from deadly weapons
when they're in a moment of crisis.
There are a whole host of things that we
could do, but at every turn, right-wing
Republicans in this country have eroded
the protections that we've put in place
and rolled them back. It was Donald
Trump who closed the White House Office
of Gun Violence Prevention and defunded
uh school mental health programs by a
billion dollars when he got in office.
It was, you know, Republicans who have
control of Congress today that uh that,
you know, voted down a bill to to
increase uh access to mental health
resources in schools. So, these are the
leaders that are saying all we have for
you is thoughts and prayers. But every
time they're given an opportunity to do
something real, to take some action,
they refuse to do it. A constant refrain
from the other side of the gun control
debate is that this is about mental
health rather than guns. Is there truth
to that?
>> Well, first of all, no. Uh if you look
at the the data, again, the data doesn't
lie. You can you can try to make it
whatever you want it to be, but the data
doesn't lie. People who are in a state
of mental health crisis are far more
likely to be the victims of violence
than they ever are to be the
perpetrator. Um but even so, if you ask
these people then, so what are you going
to do about it? They'll say nothing.
They'll throw their hands up. They'll
say absolutely nothing. So if you're
saying that the only thing that
separates America from the rest of the
world, the reason that this is a very
uniquely American crisis is because we
have worse mental health in this country
than anywhere else on the planet, then
what are you doing to fix it? Enough
with the the talking points. Enough with
the rhetoric. If you say you you figured
out what the root cause of the problem
is, then do something about it. Do you
think we are any closer to seeing
genuine reform on access to guns?
Because it it feels like this debate
happens after every high-profile mass
shooting, but nothing really changes,
does it?
>> Yeah. I, you know, I I've told people
that ever since the Pulse tragedy, I run
on hope because it's all that I have
left. Um, but it's not a naive hope. I
have seen the way we are able to make
change even in this really divided
political climate. Think about 2018
after the shooting at Marjgery Stoneman
Douglas High School and a group of
teenagers helped lead a national
movement that created Florida's first
gun safety legislation in over two
decades. I do believe in the power of
the American people ultimately to have
their their final word on this.
>> How much of a hold do you think the gun
lobby has over Donald Trump's Republican
party?
I think Donald Trump is available to the
highest bidder and the gun lobby has a
whole lot of money. Um, they're a part
of that right-wing pie, but don't forget
they're just a part of it. There are
whole host of other entities that are
also moving Donald Trump's hand uh
keeping him from taking action to keep
people safe. I think the gun lobby has
amends control in this country, but I've
also seen them weakened uh in the last,
you know, 8 n years. Everybody's pretty
clear what the problem is and everybody
wants our leaders to take some kind of
action and we've seen that shift away
from the the NRA talking points for some
time now.
>> So that's the case for gun control, but
that's only half the story, half the
viewpoint in America. Nathan Darmm is
the director of the Oklahoma State
Freedom Caucus Network. Before that,
Nathan was chair of the Oklahoma
Republican Party and was a state senator
for Oklahoma for 12 years. He's known as
one of the most conservative politicians
in the country. He's also a strong
proponent of gun rights and has been
supported by the NRA, the National Rifle
Association, which advocates for gun
ownership. Nathan, thank you very much
for joining us. What's your assessment
of the tragedy last week in Minneapolis?
Obviously uh anytime we see uh one of
these types of tragedies, it's uh
infuriating to see someone who would uh
be so vile as to target innocent
children uh or any innocent life uh in
in this manner. And so uh we always want
to uh have our thoughts and uh prayers
going towards those families as they are
suffering uh this tragedy just as if
anyone were to be suffering a tragedy.
Um it was uh frustrating to see this
take place once again, especially to see
some of the policies that have been put
in place that have allowed this to
happen. Uh especially with gun-free
school zones. They know that there's
going to be innocent children there that
are not going to be protected, are not
going to be able to have someone there
that will fight back and and defend the
lives of those innocent children.
>> You're offering thoughts and prayers. Is
that enough? No one claims that that's
the the only solution, but anytime there
there is a tragedy that takes place, uh
you know, our thoughts are with those
that are suffering that tragedy, that
that loss of life, um or any other
tragedy. And so, yes, prayer is uh is a
part of the solution. It's not the only
solution. It's not the overall solution.
Uh when I was in the state senate, I
introduced legislation uh to uh allow
teachers and administrators to be able
to carry firearms. Uh the vast majority
of these uh mass shootings that take
place in America, over 90% of them take
place in quote unquote gun-free zones,
areas where they have signs up to say no
guns allowed. So there are solutions
absolutely that need to be pursued to
allow citizens to be able to defend
themselves.
>> So you believe more guns is the answer
here?
>> Yes. And statistically that that has
been proven to be the case as we've seen
more cates more states pass
constitutional carry or allow for
increased concealed carry uh permits uh
for more law-abiding citizens to have
firearms. Uh we have seen that there has
been a decrease in those uh firearm
statistics in those areas.
>> There are more guns than people in the
United States. More guns have resulted
in more deaths. You argue that more guns
would make us safer, but it doesn't
stand up to scrutiny, does it?
>> Well, when you talk about gun deaths,
one thing that is often misreported is
that suicides are included in that. The
the vast majority of gun deaths are
suicides. That is someone inflicting
harm upon themselves. And so when you
talk about gun deaths, yes, uh because
there are more guns readily available,
people in America oftenimes will choose
that as their method of suicide. And
when you look at it statistically with
the number of firearms that are in
America, over 400 million firearms, the
number of firearms that are used to
commit murder or any other violent crime
is a statistically fraction of a
percentage. So there's you're talking
399 million firearms that have never
been used to commit a crime, that have
never been used to commit murder because
it is a tool. It is an inanimate object.
It is the individual that is responsible
for their actions, not the inanimate
object.
>> Even excluding suicide though, there's
about 20,000 deaths a year uh by
firearm. That's unacceptable, isn't it?
Some something has to change.
>> Yes. And when you look at those
statistics, uh the uh a major portion of
those are from uh young individuals that
come from fatherless homes. So if we
want to talk about actual solutions,
having a father in the home uh greatly
decreases uh the uh likelihood of
somebody being incarcerated and going to
jail, it greatly decreases the
likelihood of them committing a crime,
committing murder um just overall. Uh so
there is a fatherlessness issue in
America where people don't have a father
in the home that aren't training these
kids in the right manner. And when there
isn't a father in the home, a lot of
times these young men will look for that
belonging. They find that in gang
activity. But other countries have
fatherless homes. Other countries have
gangs. But they're not seeing this level
of gun violence because there are
tighter restrictions around who can own
a gun.
>> Not gun violence, but they have violence
with knives. I mean, even in the UK,
>> it's a lot harder to kill people with a
knife than it is with an assault rifle.
>> It it might be harder, but still people
do that. Murder still happens. Violent
crime still happens. It's still the
individual that is responsible for that.
>> You don't kill 49 people with a knife,
but you can do with an assault rifle.
>> Yes. But you can also do it with a
vehicle. We've seen people that have,
you know, mowed people over with a car
and have have killed people with
vehicles. If someone wants to commit an
atrocity, they will come away. They'll
figure out a way to do that. We've seen
people do that with bombs. We've seen
people do that with other kitchen
appliances here in America. Yes, you can
make the case that, you know, that uh
firearms can be more effective in
killing, but they are also more
effective deterrent in stopping crimes
and they're also a more effective
deterrent in stopping tyranny. And
that's one of the main foundational
reasons that we have the Second
Amendment here in America is as a hedge
against tyranny.
>> Is the defense of the Second Amendment
worth another school shooting?
What would you say to the parents of
those children who were killed uh in
Minneapolis last week? you know, about
your Second Amendment rights being worth
more than their child's life.
>> What you're saying is the Second
Amendment is more important than, you
know, a child's life. No, that's not
what we're saying at all. What we're
saying is that an individual is
responsible for their actions and the
individual who committed that atrocity
is responsible for their actions and
taking the lives of those children and
so they should be held accountable. That
would be like suggesting that in the UK
that all the British men should have to
be castrated because of a bunch of
Pakistani uh you know uh rape gangs and
saying, "Oh well, we got to we got to
castrate everyone." No. The people that
are committing those horrific rapes,
those violent crimes against those young
British girls, they should be held
responsible for it. Main reason we have
the Second Amendment is so that we have
it as a hedge against tyranny. When you
see what has happened with governments
time and time again, they have turned
against their own people. And when you
want to talk about gun deaths or just
just murders or homicides in general,
the greatest killer throughout human
history outside of disease has been
governments. Most often against their
own people, but even when they go to war
with other people, with other nations,
governments have killed more people than
any other entity throughout human
history and a lot of times against their
own citizens. Nathan, just to take you
back to gun control legislation. One
thing that a lot of people do believe
works is a red flag law which allows for
the temporary removal of firearms from
individuals that are deemed a threat to
themselves or others. You passed
legislation in Oklahoma when you were a
state senator prohibiting those red flag
laws being enacted. Why did you do that?
>> Because red flag laws violate almost
every provision of the Bill of Rights.
Uh that's you know the first 10
amendments to the US Constitution, our
Bill of Rights. Uh it violated uh our
rights to free speech. It violated the
right to keep and bear arms. In many
instances, someone can make an anonymous
accusation against you. Uh which
violates the right to face your accuser.
Uh in many instances, these are not jury
trials. Uh you just go down the list of
the Bill of Rights and it this violates
the Bill of Rights in in numerous
regards uh when they've passed these red
flag laws. So, Oklahoma was the first
state to pass an anti- red flag law. Uh,
and I I spearheaded that that
legislation. I wrote that and and and
championed that and got that across the
across the finish line, signed into law.
Other states have followed suit. Now,
Texas just did that this year as well.
If the person is the threat, the person
needs to be removed from society and
they need to have due process. They need
to go through a stringent due process to
do that. But if they are intent on
committing crime, they will do so. Do
you think, Nathan, that the gun lobby
has a hold over Republican leadership in
this country, that there's too much
money in guns? What What would you say
to people who believe that?
>> Oh, there's plenty more money on the
other side of it. I mean, if you want to
look at how much money Bloomberg and
other groups have tried to put into
their astroturf campaigns and stuff,
they've they put all kinds of money into
that. Um, and I've worked with certain
organizations, but I would say that the
NRA in many instances doesn't go far
enough for me. Now, in Oklahoma, they
worked really well with us, but
sometimes on the national level, they
they haven't been as pro- second
amendment as they as they should be. I
don't believe in compromise on our
rights. I don't believe in compromise on
the Second Amendment. Uh it's not just
gun rights. It's the right to
self-defense. Uh it says the right to
keep and bear arms. Uh and the reason
for that is to be able to defend
oneself, one's property, one's family,
uh from criminals, but also from the
potential of tyranny from their own
government. So there you have two sides
of the same story with views that seem
totally incompatible with one another.
How does America get past this?
Reconcile these two sides. Well, that's
anyone's guess. In the meantime, there
is more likely than not to be a mass
shooting today, tomorrow, and the day
after that in every state in every
corner of the country again and again.
Thank you so much for listening to this
special episode of Trump 100. I hope
you've had a lovely weekend and a good
Labor Day if you celebrate. Please do
find us on social media on Sky Newses
Instagram, Tik Tok, and Twitter. And if
you type in Trump 100 Sky News on
YouTube, you can watch this whole
episode and others in full. Please do
also drop us an email at Trump0000
sky.uk UK with any questions and
comments and we will see you later in
the